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Post by ekforum on Dec 2, 2009 9:56:37 GMT -5
Ronnie would always sit on the couch at rehearsal with his head in his hands. After about 15 minutes or so, he'd grab a mike a sing a verse...maybe stop the band and give some direction for a chorus...sometimes the chorus would get written first. He never wrote anything down - it was always just kept in his head. Ronnie used to say he didn't have to write down good lyrics. If it wasn't worth remembering the next day, it wasn't worth keeping.
The songwriting process was pretty much the same for EVERY song. A guitar player would start out with a riff and the band would join in. Then Ronnie would sit on the couch with his head in his hands waiting for a lyric idea. If that didn't happen in a half hour, then it'd be on to the next riff.
All of the songs, with some exceptions, were arranged by the band at Hell House. Very rarely did anyone bring a completed song to rehearsal (CURTIS LOEW being the only one I can recall). Among my arrangement contributions to Allen's songs were the 2 bar intro to my solo in CURTIS LOEW, the double-lead out-tro that ends his solo in NEEDLE & SPOON, and the up-tempo guitar break in COUNTRY BOY. In other words, Collins didn't bring a totally-completed piece of music to rehearsal. No one did.
We'd usually try and write a new song every day. You can't spend more than a day on one song!
No one, at any time I can recall, ever brought a tape to rehearsal or the studio to present any music to Ronnie. It was all one-on-one.
We couldn't afford tape players in those days! I'd just come home and tinker with it later at night. Or even have a guitar part appear in a dream. I love it when that happens.
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Post by ekforum on Dec 2, 2009 10:09:35 GMT -5
I thought that dual guitar harmonies were pretty much cliche even in 1974. The Allmans had done it and why compete with THEM? (They were the 'masters' of their time.)
The only place I thought dual-harmonies fit was the part I wrote coming out of Allen's wah-wah solo in NEEDLE AND SPOON. Otherwise, I think all the rest of our dual lead lines were pretty much UNISON (with the exception of maybe TWO licks in the SIMPLE MAN solo).
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Post by ekforum on Dec 2, 2009 10:10:04 GMT -5
My leads are mainly formed around chord variations. There's no method to it. I never really learned scales, though I can play a couple, I guess.
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Post by ekforum on Dec 2, 2009 10:11:02 GMT -5
During my time with Skynyrd, the only tune that was brought to rehearsal was CURTIS LOWE. All the band had to do was arrange it.
Ronnie and I wrote RAILROAD SONG in a hotel room ... so that may qualify as a tune that wasn't written in the usual way.
Usually all songs were created and arranged at rehearsal. Your scenario of how it played out is quite correct and accurate.
I can't think of a single instance where an ARRANGEMENT was changed after it was recorded. Gary & Allen's parts never changed - occasionally, I might change my part slightly. There were times when we'd work on a song during a soundcheck.
The only song that had a key change to suit Ronnie was SIMPLE MAN (key of B). And even that was just for the studio version. The live version of that song is probably in the key of C. Too high for Ronnie to sing in, but you can't have the whole band tune DOWN a half step for one song. That'd take a half hour. You hear Ronnie strain to reach that high note in the chorus ("KIND of man.....)
I can't remember a single instance where we worked up a tune and then transposed it to another key. As you may be aware, Ronnie's lyrics were written specifically to guitar riffs. So he adapted his melodies to suit that riff. Certain guitar riffs (actually, MOST guitar riffs) can only be played in the key in which they're written.
For instance, if Ronnie couldn't have sung SWEET HOME ALABAMA in the key of G, it would've been nearly impossible to change the key because the guitar part was so 'locked in' to the key of G.
UH-OH....JUST THOUGHT OF ONE. RAILROAD SONG was originally in the key of E. Ronnie said it was too low, so I put a capo at the 3rd fret and re-learned the song in G. It was just the nature of that particular melody, I guess - he wanted it higher.
Ronnie could sing very well in the key of E (CURTIS LOEW, SWAMP MUSIC, THINGS GOIN ON), but wanted RAILROAD in a higher key.
In contrast, Johnny has a REAL HARD time in the key of E.* So I was real surprised to learn that the band now tunes DOWN a half step - which means that the above mentioned songs are now in E FLAT. WAY too low for Johnny's range (although it probably makes the other songs easier to reach).
* for all you who will now JUMP on this as a 'slam on Johnny' - relax. It's not. I'm talking about the nature of Johnny's instrument versus his brother's.
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Post by ekforum on Dec 2, 2009 10:11:47 GMT -5
All of the songs written in my presence, including those co-written by Collins & Rossington, were all surprises lyrically. As I've said before, I can recall having the band rundown the music to SATURDAY NIGHT SPECIAL (in rehearsal), and having Ronnie come over to me, cup my ear with his hand, and sing me the first verse for the very first time. Incredible.
I'd say, as far as I'm concerned, every lyric he came up with was a complete surprise - we'd never see it coming! The ONLY song I can recall being brought to us was CURTIS LOEW. Allen & Ronnie had written it the night before. Most everything was written right there in Hell House at rehearsal.
Suffice it to say that I never helped Ronnie write a single lyric. And don't believe a word of it if you hear Rossington say HE helped him. Van Zant didn't need any of our help. We were the 'rhythm section' and a real good one.
Ronnie would always sit on the couch at rehearsal with his head in his hands. After about 15 minutes or so, he'd grab a mike a sing a verse...maybe stop the band and give some direction for a chorus...sometimes the chorus would get written first. He never wrote anything down - it was always just kept in his head. Though Rossington disagrees, I can't remember ONE INSTANCE where any of us helped with a lyric. THAT'S BLASPHEMY!
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Post by ekforum on Dec 2, 2009 10:12:26 GMT -5
I took two semesters of music theory in high school. That, along with learning the nuts and bolts of what makes up a chord, taught me a lot about music. Didn't have that much to do with living in California.
Billy's classically trained...don't know if he could read a note now because it's been a long time. My publishing company is called I CAN'T READ MUSIC...because I can't. I know where all the notes are but if you put sheet music in front of me, forget it.
Collins & Rossington couldn't tell you what a triad or a diminished was...but in rock and roll, that doesn't matter! Does it? I don't think Allen or Gary were aware of relative minors or, particularly, alternative chord voicings. I took some theory in school, so I was always there to point that out.
In the 70s I never had an idea or guitar part to show to Allen or Gary. Can't think of a single one. The best 3 guitar band ever.
I'm not sure if Leon knew where ANY note was on his bass. He played totally by feel and what he heard in his head
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Post by ekforum on Dec 2, 2009 10:13:08 GMT -5
Q - Now, song writing crediting ... did you guys in Skynyrd ever butt heads?
Not when they were written. But I got a call at 2 AM back around 1990 from Rossington's wife. She'd just found out that I had "stolen" ALABAMA from her husband and whoa was she PISSED. He helped inspire it but he damn sure didn't write it.
In other words, no heads were butted until the songs were certified gold.
Guitar parts were decided purely on 'what's gonna fit'. There were many times I couldn't find a slot to fit in...I'm sure the same goes for the other two. So no one really took the lead...we were able to talk it over and work it out. We never came to blows over our guitar parts.
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Post by ekforum on Dec 2, 2009 10:14:48 GMT -5
Lynyrd Skynyrd Songs co-written by Ed King
ALBUM - PRONOUNCED POISON WHISKEY ALBUM - SECOND HELPING SWEET HOME ALABAMA I NEED YOU WORKIN' FOR MCA SWAMP MUSIC TAKE YOUR TIME ALBUM - NUTHIN' FANCY SATURDAY NIGHT SPECIAL RAILROAD SONG WHISKEY ROCK-A-ROLLER CHEATIN' WOMAN ALBUM - BOX SET MR. BANKER TRUCK DRIVIN' MAN
ALBUM - 1991 SMOKESTACK LIGHTNING KEEPING THE FAITH SOUTHERN WOMEN PURE & SIMPLE MONEY MAN BACKSTREET CRAWLER IT'S A KILLER MAMA (AFRAID TO SAY GOODBYE) END OF THE ROAD ALBUM - THE LAST REBEL GOOD LOVIN'S HARD TO FIND ONE THING OUTTA HELL IN MY DODGE KISS YOUR FREEDOM GOODBYE LOVE DON'T ALWAYS COME EASY BORN TO RUN ALBUM - ENDANGERED SPECIES POISON WHISKEY GOOD LUCK BAD LUCK HILLBILLY BLUES
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Post by ekforum on Dec 2, 2009 10:15:43 GMT -5
Q - Did you ever here another band member play something or you yourself come up with a bass or guitar part where you said......"WOW"......I can't believe how good that sounds? You know you were really impressed?
When you're so busy working, often times you just can't tell what's going on. It was sort of like plowing a field...you looked at it at the end of the day and THEN maybe went 'WOW'. Like on the Sweet Home Alabama day. Definitely a WOW day. There were quite a few of those.
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Post by ekforum on Dec 2, 2009 10:16:22 GMT -5
Q - What I've always heard was that Ronnie did all the lyrics in Skynyrd, but have you ever come up with ideas about lyrics and titles, if not in Skynyrd, maybe back in the Strawberry years?
I NEVER contributed any lyrics in the "Ronnie Van Zant" era....why mess with greatness? I wrote a lot of the lyrics on the 1991 & Last Rebel CD's and some for the "Clock". I certainly DON'T consider myself a lyricist....but sometimes you've got to come up with SOMETHING.
One time I really pissed Johnny off by counting all of the lyric lines I wrote on the 1991 album. It was like 74%. And I'm a BAD lyricist.
I hate it when someone takes the easy way out on a melody line...so I'm good at taking that apart. But my specialty is 'rhythm guitar'. It's the nuts & bolts of what I do.
Of all the songs I've written, it'd be hard to take them apart piece by piece. Suffice it to say that I never helped Ronnie write a single lyric. And don't believe a word of it if you hear Rossington say HE helped him. Van Zant didn't need any of our help. We were the 'rhythm section' and a real good one.
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Post by ekforum on Dec 2, 2009 10:17:15 GMT -5
I think there were a lot of songs that were lost because of lack of money to buy a stupid cassette recorder. Leon could play you the bass part to every one of them - he'd remember HIS part to those junked tunes, but little else. I think most of them were written before I joined the band, because we didn't scrap too many tunes after I got with them.
Just try to imagine that when we DID hit upon a groove that Ronnie could write to...we'd have to make SURE we'd remember it the next day! Because if the GROOVE WAS GONE - so were Ronnie's lyrics. He kept them all in his head and he wrote them to the "feel" that we produced. No wonder we stayed there til past dark, playing those tunes over and over. Had to assure ourselves that we'd recall the whole thing the next morning. Pressure.
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Post by ekforum on Dec 2, 2009 10:17:48 GMT -5
Q - Can you explain how you guys came up with the different guitar parts, melodies, harmonies, etc? Listening to a lot of Skynyrd music, there was quite a bit of music creativity. Although the chord structures to most the songs are not difficult, the solos, rhythms are very creative and probably took a lot of time to put together. How was this done? With Billy's musical training, did he help you guys develop your parts?
Billy's classical training, if anything, was a hindrance in putting our music together. Billy likes to play A LOT and, when he plays, there are no holes! Don't get me wrong, I love his style. He just plays A LOT! I mean, all the time. When you put his part in where it works, it's just the greatest thing you ever heard.
Our guitar parts always came together very quickly. It was a natural chemistry, I guess. Because all 3 styles were so radically different, we were all able to find our "niche" in a tune. Sometimes there was NO niche for me to find! (ON THE HUNT, I have no part. RAILROAD SONG has no part for Rossington. If you can't find a part that fits, DON'T PLAY!!!!!!)
Good Skynyrd copy bands are hard to find. If you want to sound like Skynyrd, you have to pay special attention to every part. They're not as simple as they sound. Every part has a certain signature to it.
Next time to hear "That Smell", try and tune out everything EXCEPT the bass part. You'll learn plenty!
Q - How did you guys break it down? Did you start with acoustic guitars, hammer it out and then move to electric? In your practice sessions, did the guitarists separate and have their own practices until the song was roughed out and then add the vocals?
Here it is in a nutshell. Usually one of us would have an idea for a song. He'd start playing what he had (NO ACOUSTICS allowed at rehearsals!). Ronnie would sit on the couch with his head cupped in his hands. The band, in the meantime, would try to "flesh out" the "groove" of the tune...THIS is what Ronnie would write his lyrics around.
When Ronnie had come up with a verse & chorus, he'd usually stop us and sing what he had. Once that was established, we'd decide on a bridge or if the tune was going to take any "detours" along the way. All of this would take a half a day.
THEN...(whew! thinking about all this makes me TIRED!)....the drummer, bass player & one guitar player (the main rhythm player, which was me in most cases) would get the song tight as a 3-piece unit. The rest of the guys would literally GO FISHING for a couple of hours. Once in a while Ronnie would run back up to the cabin from the creek and make a suggestion.* At the end of the day, we'd be playing the song as a full band. God Help Us if we'd forgotten the "groove" the next day! In those days, we were so broke we couldn't afford to record rehearsals. That's why we'd stay so late at the cabin...to make sure we didn't forget anything.
* Ronnie had the luxury of sitting down by the creek and finishing the lyrics while he listened to the music we were trying to get right. The music ALWAYS sounded better down by the water. <sigh> WHAT AN ATMOSPHERE. Words can't describe it. Then, of course, one of us would have to spend the night out there with the heat, mugginess, cockroaches & gators. (To prevent thieves from coming up river and stealing equipment.)
Q - #1) How long did you have (personal time) to come up with your specific parts to the songs? Like, did stuff just come to you real-time, or did you have to take some time by yourself to really work out something cool?
#2) Did you guys (Collins/Ross/You) ever tell each other, 'Hey, you should try this during the verse' or 'What about this lick instead, that would sound cool'? Or were all your individual parts strictly your own all the time?
1) I like to take a while to come up with a part...at least let me sleep on it. That's why studio/session gigs around town don't appeal to me. I can't take that pressure! Show me the song...let me chew on it awhile.
2) In the 70s I never had an idea or guitar part to show to Allen or Gary. Can't think of a single one. The best 3 guitar band ever.
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Post by ekforum on Dec 2, 2009 10:18:39 GMT -5
Q - Does it matter money wise if you wrote the song or played on it or is the money equal all the way around?
Being a songwriter is everything. Recording & promotional costs are re-couped by the record company out of the bands' royalties before any money can be paid to band members. However, songwriter royalties are paid from the sale of the FIRST copy.
I've even seen one where my name is left off completely. Doesn't matter...they still have to write me a check.
Q - I've wondered how royalties work for cover songs. Whenever a band releases an album with a cover song on it, does the artist with the credits receive some part of the royalty?
The only one to get paid from a cover song is the writer(s). The original artist gets nothing (but exposure, which can be a good thing).
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Post by ekforum on Dec 2, 2009 10:19:46 GMT -5
Q - Was the songwriting process of "Pronounced", "Second Helping", and "Nuthin' Fancy" easier/harder compared to "1991" and "The Last Rebel"?
You gotta know that writing with Ronnie was as easy as falling off the proverbial log. Everything else is just plain work.
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Post by ekforum on Dec 2, 2009 10:20:35 GMT -5
Q - Ed, when you've mentioned how Ronnie would listen to riffs etc, and come up with the lyrics, is that unusual? It seems to me that it would be hard enough to come up with lyrics, let alone having to structure them into something. It just appears easier to me, to put the music to the words, rather then the other way around.
Sometimes I wonder what kind of sloppy condition Bernie Taupin's lyrics were in when he delivered them to Elton. I'm certain they weren't as metered and as rhythmic and they turned out to be. For Elton, it worked out well.
Ronnie liked to write the other way. And for us, as guitar players, it was a dream come true. It made sense to me...the way you'd watch Ronnie fit the syllables in amongst the groove of each song. Once he had a verse and chorus, he'd take off and go fishing the rest of the day. Listened to us play & work out the song while he fished...and wrote the rest of it in his head. No wonder we couldn't wait to get to practice every day.
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